Octogenarian and Chairman of the League of Veteran Journalists, Oyo State, Mr Banji Ogundele, is a towering figure in Nigerian journalism. Over four decades ago, he served as Editor of the Nigerian Tribune and also made his mark at the Daily Times in Lagos. In this exclusive conversation with TheDiggerNews Team – Kehinde Adegoke and Adetoye Faleye – Ogundele bares his mind on a broad spectrum of critical national issues — from insecurity and the state of the nation to military rule and the enduring stain of corruption that continues to trail Nigeria to this day.This explosive interview is presented in two parts. Here, we bring you the first instalment where the veteran journalist spoke about Mazi Nnamdi Kanu when his trial was ongoing. The interview is a thought-provoking read that captures the voice of a seasoned journalist reflecting on Nigeria’s journey. Savour this edition while we prepare the next.
Let’s talk about the state of insecurity in Nigeria. Even though former President Obasanjo faced this problem in office, can you suggest a better way to fight insecurity now that it has gone into another dimension, with foreign countries trying as much as possible to intrude? For example, the President of the United States of America Donald Trump has said they will come here with “guns-a-blazing”. How do you think President Tinubu should fight this insecurity?
I must tell you that the insecurity problem in Nigeria is complex and serious. It’s hydra-headed. We have Boko Haram, which initially started as a group of people who uniquely wanted Islam because they didn’t like the way people practice Islam now. They wanted it in their own way. That’s one.
There’s Uthman Dan Fodio’s policy of yesteryear, which holds that the Fulani must dip the Qur’an into the sea. There’s the aspect of our former President, the Late Muhammadu Buhari, who imported some people from Chad, Niger, and all these French territories to come and wait for Jonathan’s election, saying that if he lost, they should come to Nigeria. Fortunately, he won.
The story we had was that these people wanted 150 billion Naira in compensation for their coming. And Nigeria offered them N100 billion. They took the N100 billion but refused to go. That was the allegation I learnt. Now, when that money was finished, they had to take care of themselves. And so they became bandits. They became kidnappers. They became a terror of all sorts in Nigeria.
That’s another aspect. Come to think of it, even our own people are now joining them to be kidnappers because it’s another source of money. If somebody is kidnapped in Edo state or in Ondo state, it might not be the Fulani people who kidnapped that person.
It might be our own people masked in Fulani dress. It’s complex. Then we have the problem of executives also being involved in insecurity, because in a war, people supply ammunition, which brings them a lot of money. They won’t want it to stop. And these look like the untouchables in the government.
As I said, it’s a mirage. It’s not something we can solve easily. Except for the strong will and determination of our President to say enough is enough! I want peace in this country.
I’ll give you an example. The Americans wanted to gas the terrorists in Sambisa Forest. Overnight, the plan leaked to them, and upon arriving, they were wearing nose masks. That’s how the American Soldiers were amazed and said so among the Nigerian Army: people are informing them. They have spies among us.
Why did we lose a Brigadier-General so easily when all his supporters deserted him, and he was killed? It’s a huge question. There’s the allegation that they want to Islamise the whole of Nigeria. But must they kill us because they want to Islamise us?
Religion is a free thing, and our constitution does not say except… even though they have a Shariah Court surreptitiously inserted into something, where we are still in a nation where religion is free. And I believe personally that if you want to convince me to be a Muslim, you talk to me. If you speak to me and I accept, fine. So be it.
There’s no need for force. There is no need for Jihad. Christians are gaining ground because they talk to the people. They convince them that this is a better option, not because they want me by all means, or if I don’t want to join, they kill me.
Nigeria’s security depends on the President. He must take a stance like, “Enough is enough.” I don’t want this. Because an allegation is there that governors, members of the Senate, and even the executive are funding this insurgency, because that’s where they think they’ll have their money.
Let me tell you, the evil effect of the military in Nigeria is the love of money. Before now, people didn’t like money. But when the Army came, they deified money, and now every one of us worships it. In those days, if you brought news to me as editor of the Tribune, I would pay you for bringing me news. Now, if you want to publish news, you must pay me before I can use the story. It’s an irony.
Now it’s evident that the government cannot fight this battle, since 2009, even beyond then, insecurity has come to stay with us. But some individuals are looking at it as if there’s going to be a kind of foreign intervention, so why don’t we allow Trump to come? Some people are expressing fear that Trump has his own interests, but the government has been unable to fight insecurity since 2009.
If you remember what I said earlier, I said the President must make a decision. Inviting Trump here has many implications. These foreign people don’t fight for nothing. They have their own interest. Okay, if they’re going to fight insecurity, why did they suggest camping in Port Harcourt?
Why are they asking for a camp in Port Harcourt? Why not in Sambisa in Borno State? It’s simply because they have their own interest. They cannot take their eyes off our oil. They’re not happy that Dangote is now the oil supplier in West Africa. Their economy will be affected.
So if they come here, they’re not going to bomb the Islamic people alone. They are coming for economic reasons. That’s why I’m scared! If Trump comes here, he doesn’t want to leave. He wants to corner our minerals, our oil, and everything that’ll support his government MAGA- Make America Great Again!
Anything that can help him is what’s sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. Anything that he can use to pop up his government. Secondly, his popularity is very low in America now. It’s going very, very low. So, he needs something like a war breaking out somewhere to divert their attention and regain popularity, because once America is fighting, they’re at one with their President.
They will support him so that he doesn’t lose. So, personally, I don’t want Trump to come. He can arrange with our government to send experts to train our own military men to fight this insurgency. But the thing is more than that. Amongst the military itself, there’s a problem. They’re just leaking information to the rebels. Otherwise, we would not have lost a Brigadier-General.
Look at how much is used to train such a person to that rank. They just took him away just like that. The problem is more than what we’re looking at. Very, very big. Personally, I think the solution is to have the regional arrangement we had before. Let the West take care of itself. Let the East take care of itself. Yes! Then, anybody who’s coming, we can now fight him in our own way.
At present, allegations are rife that, as far as executives are concerned, they are part of the Boko Haram sponsors, so, if we are still in the same amorphous Nigeria that Awolowo called “geographical expression”, we’re not on the road yet.
Away from insecurity, Now that Veterans Journalists and the NUJ members are operating in this same Press Centre, how have you been cohabiting without any friction?
It’s very, very simple, my dear brother. If you know that those of us who are called veterans were once practising journalists, they’ll grow old; one day, they’ll leave the job. They’ll become veterans. We thought that, look, after you have stopped working, there’s life after retirement.
We assemble here, drink a beer or two, talk about our experience, and that gives us a longer life. It extends your longevity. It doesn’t allow you to die quickly. When we’re building this place, we told them we’re not building it for ourselves. You’re the people who’re going to take over.
How many years do I have left at 83? God has blessed me. I thank God. If I die tomorrow, I don’t regret it because God has been good to me. When I go, people like you must take over. That’s the relationship; we’re telling them to build with us. They’re our natural successors.
They’re going to take over from us. So, there’s no quarrel. And let me tell you the present NUJ Executive has been fantastic. They gave us this place. Even though they didn’t think we’d be able to build it. They did not know we’d have enough resources to make it. In fact, there came a time when they said, “Won’t you give us? We think you will not be able to build it?” But we told them that God is merciful to everybody. Give us a little time.
Now, by the grace of God, this is the most beautiful building in this place. There’ll be others that will come after, but as of today, God did it for us. We don’t have any quarrel with them. Naturally, the Yoruba adage says, when you have a broom, things go one by one. So, we’ll be going; they’re the people to replace us. We’re one.
44 Lawmakers recently called on President Bola Ahmed Tinubu to release the IPOB Leader, Nnamdi Kanu. What’s your take, Sir?
There’s nothing wrong, absolutely, in a democracy for people to air their views. That’s part of the freedom of the association and of the press. They’re free to associate with other people. Hence, we have political parties. You’re free to express yourselves as long as you don’t tamper with the freedom of another person. So, there is nothing wrong with asking. But what’s the position of the law? Because if you give me freedom and I encroach on yours, that’s no more freedom. It has to stop where your own freedom starts.
Nnamdi Kanu was in the court of a competent jurisdiction. He’s been charged with an offence. He had lawyers, and then he said they should go away; he would plead his own case. Yes. That’s still within his liberty.
There’s nothing wrong with anybody saying free him, but he should not forget the gravity of the offence – he’s been charged with treason.
He had to prove himself before leaving that court. No amount of gathering of whatever people. Whatever, people are alright. It’s relevant as long as the law is allowed to take its course. It’s within the President’s competence to say, ‘Nnamdi Kanu, I’m allowing you to go.’ He cannot force himself to leave that place.
He’s facing a severe charge, and we all know what he did in the eastern region. So, even if 100 of the lawmakers say, “Free him.” That’s their opinion. That’s not the legal position. They’re expressing their views in a society where there’s freedom. But the law must be allowed to take its course. The President can exercise his prerogative of mercy to ask him to go, if and when he’s convicted. The judge can say there’s no case to answer. The judge might say he’s guilty. Then the President comes in and says Because I have a prerogative of mercy, I will now ask this man to go. That’s my position on that.
In one of his comments, I mean Nnamdi Kanu himself, because he talks a lot in the court. He said the offences were not committed in Nigeria but abroad. Based on that, according to him and some court officials, he’s supposed to be freed.
I’m not a lawyer, but the offences were actually committed here. Was the killing of people in Kenya? The Monday sit-at-home event: were they committed in Kenya? No! But the law is an axe; lawyers know how to go about it. He cannot be saying the thing was not committed here because he was apprehended in Kenya, which is not equivalent to the fact that the people he sponsored, who are killing people here, took place in Kenya.
The people who died were Nigerians. They were not Kenyans. The people whose economy is disrupted are not Kenyans. They’re Nigerians. If you shut down a whole region so that they cannot come out on certain days of the week, the economy of that place will be ruined. Do you know how many billions they’re losing in that day alone?
I am not a lawyer, but I am saying no. The offence was committed here before he ran to Kenya. But he committed an offence against Nigeria. Okay, what happened in Lagos? What happened in Kenya?
The Igbos, I’m sorry to say, have something against the Yorubas. If you remember the war, we were fighting against the North; they came to Ore to occupy Lagos. Lagos is the place they want to occupy.
I don’t know why? They call it a no-man’s land. Why? Why didn’t they call Enugu a no man’s land? My late brother worked all his life in Onitsha. He had money to buy land, but they did not sell land to him in Onitsha because he was not an indigene. So what are you talking about? When we are talking about a nation, it must be free for all of us.
You cannot create a law for the East and make another law for the West. No! We are very liberal as Yoruba people. We allow them a lot of largesse. We give them the freedom to do whatever they want, but they cannot allow us to do it in their own place. How’s it possible? So, saying it was not committed here, and it was committed there, no Kenyan was killed. People who died are from Anambra State and are in Lagos.
